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Ian Burrell

Ian Burrell edits the Media Weekly pages of The Independent.

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The 'BNP on the BBC' debate

Posted by Ian Burrell
  • Friday, 11 September 2009 at 03:38 pm

In the new edition of the left-leaning New Statesman James Macintyre claims that the BBC is wrong to give BNP leader Nick Griffin a platform on Question Time. "My objection," he says, "is that QuestionTime - unlike Newsnight or Today, where presenters could give Griffin a grilling on immigration - would provide a soft format for him to pontificate on a variety of issues of the day. It is hard not to have a 'good' Question Time."

Macintyre writes as a former BBC producer and claims that the corporation's decision to invite Griffin onto the programme is not simply a result of the BNP's relatively-strong showing at the Euro elections, but something that has been under consideration for over two years.

Last week I had a beer with the BBC's political editor Nick Robinson and we talked about the BNP. Robinson described the party's rise as "a legitimate story" and one that he is anxious to cover. He would have reported on the BNP launch for the European Elections but was called away to another assignment.

"They're a legitimate party who some people vote for, who others loathe and despise and think are dangerous, whose ideas must be fully tested and can't be censored," is Robinson's view. I think he's right.

He also warns of overstating the BNP's popularity.  "I don't think they're a big part of the general election. The recent elections were on a system of proportional representation which made them more of a factor but rather less than some people thought they would be." I hope he's also right on the BNP struggling under the first-past-the-post system.

The likes of Robinson and John Humphrys should get their chance to put Griffin through the mangle. In the meantime we must trust the vastly-experienced David Dimbleby (for whom Robinson was once a producer), along with the members of the public who make up the Question Time audience, to pull away the mask of the BNP leader who few would deny is an increasingly effective media performer.

 

Comments

Not in Luton
ron_broxted wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 04:28 pm (UTC)
They are certainly media savvy even though morally they are knuckle draggers. Their popularity? Due solely to Labour abandonning the white working class.
Re: Not in Luton
colinru wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 10:42 pm (UTC)
They want to control immigration, which I agree with, but I do not see that this makes them knuckle draggers.

I agree that they are gaining because Labour have abandoned the indigineous working class but so have the rest of the Polity.

Sad because none of this tension was necessary and could have been nipped in the bud years ago if the Polity had the gumption to take hard decisions.
Re: Not in Luton
ron_broxted wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 05:06 pm (UTC)
As I said to Nick Griffin if someone wants a zero immigration policy I think that is OK. The BNP are a one trick pony. Their policies are gaga outside of limiting immigration (and it is the 2 million Poles & East Europeans who caused most problems).
Re: Not in Luton
colinru wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 06:20 pm (UTC)
I do not like their Economic Policies and I am not keen on some of their other Policies but gaga seems a bit strong.

I would be interested to know why you think the Poles et al are a bigger problem. Most of the people that I have met who claimed to vote BNP did not seem worried about East Europeans to much extent. Do you mean because they depress wages in some areas.
Re: Not in Luton
ron_broxted wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 10:46 pm (UTC)
Not that. I saw in Belfast & England that they got priority with housing. Caused a lot of aggro. Off the Pshishi 50% I met were great, 50% scum.
Re: Not in Luton
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 09:58 am (UTC)
Yes, I have come across that sort of inverse discrimination which some of my friends have suffered. It causes tension and it astounds me that the Polity do not seem to understand that they are storing up trouble. Mind you, I do not know why it astounds me as most of the Polity have never run a whelk stall, never mind a Country.
philipshahak wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 07:07 pm (UTC)
Why not Nick Griffin? The Beeb normally has at least one Zionist on the panel each week. And the BNPs popularity? Probably due to the Zionists being able to vote for a party that, like themselves, hate Muslims.
A small victory for freedom of speech
gw1000 wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 08:26 pm (UTC)
Nick Griffin and the BNP have earned the right to greater TV coverage. His opponents on the Question Time panel will have every opportunity to try to challenge and refute the party's ideas and policies. But somehow I think this is what makes them most anxious.
Re: A small victory for freedom of speech
ron_broxted wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 08:57 pm (UTC)
The BNP/KKK are ideologically jejune.
Re: A small victory for freedom of speech
gw1000 wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 09:11 pm (UTC)
If you want to critique BNP policies, then go ahead, but be specific. That at least will be more constructive than juvenile juxtapositions.
Why not?
helsbels81 wrote:
Friday, 11 September 2009 at 10:33 pm (UTC)
I don't agree with everything they say, but it's been too long since anyone has been allowed to stand up for the values and heritage of Britain that I'm happy they are being given coverage.

I can't stand racism and would therefore never vote for them, but in this country we believe in freedom of speech so why can't they voice their beliefs?
Re: Why not?
dylanatstrumble wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 07:48 am (UTC)
I always love it when people talk of British values and heritage as if they were something to be proud of, like slavery, colonialism, the first use of concentration camps, the inability of the ruling classes to allow a truly popular vote until the 1920's, the slaughter of the French Knights at Agincourt, etc, etc. Let's not kid ourselves, Britain is built on a lie and is probably no better or worse than any other country
Re: Why not?
colinru wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 11:01 am (UTC)
I always love it when someone posts who is so guilty about being British.

Slavery, we did it, as did almost everybody, but we also helped to stop it.

Colonialism, we did it but we stopped earlier and more amicably than most nations. Our reasons for doing it were the usual mix but many of them were a good deal more honourable than our competitors. As my History Teacher once put it, being colonised was no fun but, if it was going to happen, you had best pray that it was the British that arrived on your land.

We started enfranchising the population in the mid 19th Century, long before most Countries. In fact, I think that you can argue that France, America and Britain helped to drive this for the rest of the World, in the last 2 Centuries.

Concentration Camps, we were not the first with our Camps during the Boer War. Look it up if you do not believe me.

Agincourt was because we were at War and French Knights would not retreat. What do you expect the Engish Archers to do, let themselves be ridden down.

Most Countries are built on lies and Britain is no better than some but IS better than many. That is a good epitaph for a Nation, IMHO.
Missing Link
kevinwell wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 04:00 am (UTC)
Has anyone come across Ron's brain anywhere?
Re: Missing Link
ron_broxted wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 05:08 pm (UTC)
Kev I look forward to your blog immensely.
Giving them a platform
allenn007 wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 09:52 am (UTC)
Allowing them on QT is giving a Nazi Party a platform. Griffin will come over as respectable, middle of the road, genial even, and talk about immigration and the rise of Islam appealling to Sun, Daily Express/ Mail readers and yes many of those will fall for it. What he won't mention of course is his adulation of Hitler etc, and his racist ideas.

Unfortunately many will be taken in by him, which is why he shouldn't be given this means of publicity. You have to draw the line against extremist parties like this even though they will attempt to conceal that extremism. They will make fools of many if given the chance. Be warned.



Re: Giving them a platform
colinru wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 11:21 am (UTC)
So people like the indigineous working class are too stupid to know what is good for them and must allow people such as yourself to decide what they may see and hear. This is exactly the crap that John Denham, in effect, came out with in The Grauniad today re The Engish Defence League.

The BNP have been starved of the oxygen of publicity, as you would no doubt put it, for years and the result is that almost a million people voted for them at the Euro Elections. Do you not concede that your hypothesis might be wrong. Perhaps it is time to let them explain their views in detail. It is just possible that, as people such as those thick working class oiks that you so distrust, hear more detail and more refutation, they might decide NOT to vote for them.

They are, in any case, a NAZI party only in the sense that they are a Nationalist and Socialist Party. Personally I do not see that as abhorrent, though it is not my cup of tea. I think that they are right that immigration has to be controlled but I do not like their Economic Policies as they would take us back to the sixties with Nationalised Industries etc.

I think that there is a slow motion train wreck happening in Britain and yet the Polity does nothing. There are only three possible answers that I can think of to this conundrum >

1. I am wrong and all is for the best in this best of all possible worlds.

2. I am a genius and can see things more clearly than everyone else.

3. The Polity know full well that uncontrolled immigration, multiculturalism and inverse discimination are a catastrophe waiting to happen but cannot or will not do anything.

I fear that the answer is 3 but I do not understand why they will not take the hard decisions that are necessary.
Re: Giving them a platform
allenn007 wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 04:58 pm (UTC)
I can see that you are a sympathiser for much of what the BNP stand for, enough said.

When you use the word 'indigenous' this a vile term used regularly by Griffin and Co implying that non-whites are somehow not British.

When I said a 'Nazi' party, it is on record that the BNP leader Griffin is a big fan of Hitler. He has admitted that in the past.
Re: Giving them a platform
colinru wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 06:13 pm (UTC)
Whether or not I sympathise with the BNP is hardly germane, I would have thought. I have already said that I agree with them that immigration should be controlled to a much greater degree than at present but dislike their Economic Poliies. How does this affect the veracity of what I have posted.

I used indigineous rather than white because I was including 2nd and subsequent generation immigrants. It is a perfectly sensible word and, if anything, is an inclusive term which I would have thought the anti fascists found more acceptable. Quite how you decide a word is vile per se is beyond me.

Even if Griffin is still an admirer of Hitler, so what. Some members of Labout admired Stalin et al but we should judge a Party by its Policies not what some of its members may think now, never mind what they have thought in the past. If we use that as a criteria, a chunk of the present Cabinet would be beyond the pale. I am old enought to remember some of the statemnets made by Jack Straw in Student Politics.

Perhaps you would care to refute some of the other points that I made in my post.
Re: Giving them a platform
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 08:05 pm (UTC)
allenn007 I fully agree, like i keep on saying griffin is an extremely clever little racist, he will say or do anything to make sure he and his organisation look good and will try to hide his real ideas.

But if he ever was PM, he would do to coloured people what the Nazis did to jews before the Nazis made the gas chambers.

The BNP, EDL and others + their muslim versions need to be banned and outlawed.

Free speach is one thing but for the good of the peace, you can't have nazi organisations running round causing anarchy, then hiding under the umbrella of free speach.

A line has to be drawn some where and these nazi organisations need to be banned.

I don't care what BNP supporters say, you can't have organisations existing who want to cause such trouble.
First past the post and the BNP
thegangofone wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 01:02 pm (UTC)
On this occasion I could not agree less withe Nick Robinson with regard to the electoral system. We have in effect an electoral system that means the big two can do what they want want and become detached from the electorate.

You end up with some sectors of society not feeling part of the cappuccino crowd and they are exploited by the BNP who will use any device or lie.

So far from being what keeps us safe from the extremist fascists a version of PR could cut off their oxygen of discontent.

Racism
jpsartre2 wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 05:00 pm (UTC)
Helsbels81 cannot stand racism. Assuming the word is being used as per Concise Oxford dictionary, there is not necessarily anything wrong with racism. On this definition, racism is the belief that one race is superior to another, or hatred or discrimination based on the latter belief. Clearly hatred and discrimination are wrong about 95% of the time. But there is nothing necessarily wrong with the first part of the definition.

Negros win all the 100 sprint events. Jews get vastly more Nobel prizes per head of population than Arabs and some other races. As for Australian Abriginees, God knows what they’ve ever achieved. And before some PC twit claims I am suggesting Aboriginees be treated like dirt, no that’s not what I am suggesting.
QT and the soft format.
auntyeunice wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 09:11 pm (UTC)
- would provide a soft format for him to pontificate on a variety of issues of the day. It is hard not to have a 'good' Question Time."

So for years the unholy trinity of Lib Lab Con have been given the 'soft format' on QT to pontificate, the same unholy trinity which have lived high on the hog while fertilising the political ground to allow the seeds of the BNP to germinate and grow.
Don't point fingers at the BNP point them at the three in one, and ask what did you do Honourable Member, to prevent the circumstances that allowed this?
writemaster10 wrote:
Saturday, 12 September 2009 at 10:04 pm (UTC)
Compared to ALL the parties including UKIP, The Greens, BNP only got 2 MEPs, just 2 after all their flashy glossy pre election broadcasts. Even Labour got more seats than the BNP yet some people give the impression that by winning just 2 seats the BNP have won the election to rule the world.

What an utter load of rubbish, if any of the other parties had got so little they would have considered this as a disaster (which for the BNP it is). Also the BNP got LESS votes this time round than they did in past Euro elections, only reason they got 2 MEPS was because most people didn't vote.

UK has 61 million people living her, 1 million voted for the BNP so we have 1 million little racists. But a lot more people voted for all other parties and overall the Torys got more votes than any one else.

To the people who think Griffin is harmless think again, he is extremely clever and dangerouse at manipulating the media for his own needs but every one knows he and his organisation are racists.

Since the BNP got 2 MEPs other racist organisations such as The stop the Islamification of Europe campaign and English defence league have suddenly sprung up. It sounds like their aim is to stir up racial hatred and divide communities which hardly had any racial trouble before.

If people think its "ok" to be a racist, how would they like it if they where hated purely due to their skin colour ?

How would they like it if they and their family where made to feel bad because they where not white and where attacked and abused purely due to the colour of their skin or their race.

If you have never experienced racism then you have no idea what it is, you have no right to tell others that racism is nothing, when its NOT nothing its pure evil and needs to be stopped.

Every one including British Asians are worried about immigration (as it effects us all). UKIP want to stop mass immigration, Torys want to slow it down but none of these political partys get as much free publicity as the racist BNP get.

By putting Griffin on Question Time the BBC are making this person look respectable when there is NOTHING respectable about him or his racist organisation.
BNP got less votes
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 10:31 am (UTC)
That is incorrect, they polled 808,200 in 2004 and 943,598 in 2009.

So BNP 1 million votes was, depending how you calculate it, 4 to 8% of the vote. You cannot use a population total as you then include those too young, Lords, Prisoners, Mental Incompetents and others not entitled to vote.

I agree with you that it is a small number but revolutions and paradigm shifts in a Polity start with small numbers, see Germany in the 20s.

I do not understand why voting BNP, a National Socialist Party, is rascist unless that term also applies to members of the BPA, Asian Lawyers etc. and it never does. It is only rascist if whites do it. This sort of double standard is, IMHO, one of the reasons that the indigineous working class are starting to turn to the BNP which could be very dangerous. I presume that you use the diminutive little rascists to make it clear that these people are below the salt and, like John Denham yesterday, think that they are incapable of making up their minds logically.

You make the point that new Groups are stirring up trouble where there was none before but I think that there already was tension in the indigineous community and what has changed is that the worm is now turning. I have been posting here for a couple of years now pointing out that the Polity had to get their heads out of the sand or there would be a growing problem if they ignored the BNP and the fears that they represent. They have not, of course, apart from a few pathetic soundbites which fooled nobody.

I did not know that UKIP had a Policy re mass immigration but, in any case, I suspect that those voting BNP have been lied to by LIBLABCON so often on this and told they were rascists, just as you are doing, when they have raised legitimate concerns of the effects on themselves that they no longer listen. Again something that I have been posting here for years.

If the Polity want to stop the BNP then they have to put forward solid proposals, not soundbites, that address stopping mass immigration, ensuring that those most affected receive the funds to ameliorate the problems caused by it, forbidding the Public Services from practising inverse discrimination in favour of minority Groups, including those such as soi disant Travellers. Lacking this, I suspect that the BNP et al will continue to grow because ther is no realistic alternative for the poor indigineous population who are predominantly white.

As for putting Griffin on the BBC I think that, as a Public Service Broadcaster, the BBC have a duty to show all points of view no matter how reprehensible some think it to be. Denying the BNP the oxygen of publicity has not worked very well, has it. Time to look at their Policies and see if they can be refuted.
Re: BNP got less votes
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 12:51 pm (UTC)
My info on BNP votes was taken from the press, I believe the press more than I believe you.

Correct me if I am wrong but racism is against the law.

The SNP are also nationalist but unlike the BNP, the SNP are not racists.

They do not have a policy to repatriate British citizens of colour, they do not have a policy to ban mixed race marriages. They do not want to ban multi culturism.

But the BNP do and every one knows the BNP are racists so don't try to brain wash me in to their ways as it won't work.

If you think the BNP are not racists then its clear you don't know what they are like or you probably are a BNP supporter.

Its clear you have never been physically and verbally attacked, abused or purely hated due to your skin colour or race. Its clear you have never been hounded out of your house and home due to endless racist attacks purely due to your colour or race.

Is it "ok" to do that ?

How would BNP supporters like it if that happened to them or their familys and friends.

I know what racism is as I have friends who experience it so I know what its like.

By using words such as LIBLABCON, indigineous working class, by saying *** that term also applies to members of the BPA, Asian Lawyers etc. and it never does ***

Sounds very BNP to me, its a very clever tactic and method used by the BNPs management to justify their vile and nasty racist views and why the racists should exist and why its “ok” to be a racist.

So why didn’t your lot say that 70 years ago when we where fighting the racist Nazis in the second world war ?

Why didn’t your lot tell Churchill to stop the war and be friends with the racist Nazis ?

70 years ago people fought the racists as they knew what they where doing was wrong, racism is still wrong now but the BNP try to exploit this.

I feel the BNP are the political arm of the racists in the same way that Sein Fenn was the political arm of the IRA. The racist now think with 2 MEPs the BNP are a political force to be reckoned with when they are not. Despite all their glossy ads on prime time tv they only got 2 MEPS, only 2, not 50 or 60 they just got 2.

So do you call that a victory, I and others don’t.
You haven't dragged in every other group including gays, the disabled, the Scouts (who don’t let girls join). The British Olympic team who won’t let non athletes compete in the Olympic games for britiain, The Women's Institute, Catholic church (in some areas won’t allow devout catholics to marry outside their religion), the protestants, the IRA the list can go on forever. All these have their own groups and organisations, but you've only mentioned organisations which have people of colour in them.

In the 1930's the nazis blamed all their troubles and problems on the jews. Now in 2009 the BNP and other racist and fascist organisations are trying to put all the blame on Asians and people of colour.

They are using the same tactics and same blue prints as the Nazis used initially against the jews, remember crystal night and what happened after that ?

We can't let history repeat it self.

BNP supporters go on about immigration to the UK from coloured people.

Why don't you include immigration from people such people from Poland, Cosovo or Romania as they are immigrants as well, don’t they take british jobs, don’t they stretch our resources, of course they do but none of the little racists mention them as they are white.

What about when white English people emigrate to Australia, Spain, Dubia, Cyprus, Isreal and USA aren’t they immigrants like British citizens of colour are immigrants to the BNP ?

Why don’t these countries have groups like the BNP to repatriate ex pats back to the UK ?

They don’t as they are not as racist as the BNP.

The BPA are not racists any one can join their organisation regardless of race and colour, the BPA and Society of Asian Lawyers don’t have a policy to repatriate British citizens of colour.

Unlike the BNP the Society of Asian Lawyers and BPA are not a political organisation, both are not racists.

Trying to talk to BNP supporters is like trying to talk to a wall, they will never listen to reason they hate non whites at all costs and thats it.

Re: BNP got less votes
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 01:34 pm (UTC)
My info was taken from an EU website, from memory, it was an EU Election. I did not write down the website but I did write down the Numbers because they contradicted what the Press were saying.

I do not believe that any opinion should be against the Law and Racism is NOT against the Law but trying to foment racial hatred is, as I understand the Law. In any case, the problem is that the Law is NOT applied impartially. The Criminal Justice System, like all Public Services suffers from inverse discrimination.

The BNP do not have a Policy of repatriating Citizens but do for recent immigrants.

I am not a BNP Member, Voter or Supporter and where did I say, or imply, that I thought it was acceptable to attack people because of their race. The ususal straw man, ad hominem attack used by soi disant anti fascists on anyone who disagrees with them to any degree whatsoever in an attempt to close down the debate. It no longer works with me or many others.

Just because the BNP only have 2 MEPs now does not mean that they are not a growing problem. If you are going to debate with me you might try and learn a bit of the history of the Nazis, since you are using them as a stick to attack my viewpoint. Hitler did not have a majority in the Reichstag in the early 30s and it would not stop him in Britain now. Labour needed 25% of the possible vote to win the last Election. If you can access a copy of Hitler, A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock I believe that you will find frightening similarities to the present situation, albeit for different reasons.

I make no difference between all the Organistions that you quote. You are the one who wants the BNP et al to be treated by a different yardstick so, IMHO, you are applying double standards because you do not agree with the BNP et al.
Re: BNP got less votes
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 11:44 pm (UTC)
**** quote ****

as I understand the Law. In any case, the problem is that the Law is NOT applied impartially. The Criminal Justice System, like all Public Services suffers from inverse discrimination.

*** end quote ***

I agree thats why more coloured people get stopped and searched than white people.

**** quote ****

The BNP do not have a Policy of repatriating Citizens but do for recent immigrants.

*** end quote ***

I'm sorry but they do, At the moment they are doing a great job at trying to hide it.

It may not be on their website but every one knows the BNP do have this policy.


**** quote ****

I am not a BNP Member, Voter or Supporter and where did I say, or imply, that I thought it was acceptable to attack people because of their race.

*** end quote ***

Its the general impression I got from your answers, if your not then I apologise.



**** quote ****
The ususal straw man, ad hominem attack used by soi disant anti fascists on anyone who disagrees with them to any degree whatsoever in an attempt to close down the debate. It no longer works with me or many others.

*** end quote ***
I never did it to close down a debate, I just wrote what I thought.


**** quote ****


Just because the BNP only have 2 MEPs now does not mean that they are not a growing problem. If you are going to debate with me you might try and learn a bit of the history of the Nazis, since you are using them as a stick to attack my viewpoint. Hitler did not have a majority in the Reichstag in the early 30s and it would not stop him in Britain now. Labour needed 25% of the possible vote to win the last Election. If you can access a copy of Hitler, A Study in Tyranny by Alan Bullock I believe that you will find frightening similarities to the present situation, albeit for different reasons.


*** end quote ***

Fair point, I agree with you and the BNP + their muslim versions all need to be stopped.


**** quote ****

I make no difference between all the Organistions that you quote. You are the one who wants the BNP et al to be treated by a different yardstick so, IMHO, you are applying double standards because you do not agree with the BNP et al.

*** end quote ***


Not really I just want peace for all communties living here and I want our wonderful country to combine the best from every one and go forward.

Trouble makers such as the racists, fascists need to be dealt with and stopped for good of every one.

The police do this all the time, its called dealing with bad guys and protecting their victims or the innocent.

With the recession on we all have better things to worry about than worry about a load of racists and fascists at the BNP, EDL or their muslim versions.

As long as people are treated equally and fairly then its live and let live

Think you have another post which (if i get the time) i will reply to in the future and no I'm not being smug by saying that but I need to get up for work in the morning.

Its been good to chat and hope we can talk again on a subject which isnt based on racists or fascists of any kind.

Re: BNP got less votes
colinru wrote:
Monday, 14 September 2009 at 12:16 pm (UTC)
Well I do not agree with all your replies but that is life, I suppose.

You seem to feel that the BNP are the problem where as I think that they are a symptom of and a reaction to a problem caused by the Polity.

We will find out if this is a growing difficulty within a few months when there is an Election.

Anyway, thank you for an interesting debate.
Re: BNP got less votes
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 01:48 pm (UTC)
The BNP point seems to be that they want to restrict immigration from Groups who cannot or will not integrate into British Society and they do not seem to class Eastern European Groups as part of that problem.

I suppose that that is the reason that there are no great problems when British Whites emigrate to places like Australia because they find it easier to integrate.

So, according to you, it is not rascist for Asian Lawyers to band togethe but it is for White Britons. Only in your Universe. This is, again, inverse discrimination.

You can only join the BPA if you are a member of a Black Police group. IF that is not rascist then why is the BNP. Personally, I think that they are both rascist. If you think that the BPA is not a Political Outfit, then why is it not The British Police Organisation. As for why does the BPA not have a Policy of repatriation this is a non sequiter. They are not a Political Party and, if they had such a Policy, they would be acting outside their remit. The BNP is not.

I find trying to talk to anti fascists such as yourself just as difficult as you claim to do with BNP supporters, which I am not. I do it because Britain is on a heading to disaster unless the concerns of some sections of the populace are addressed. The Polity is making exactly the same mistake that von Hindenburg et al made in 30s Germany. Problems do NOT disappear because you ignore them!
Re: BNP got less votes
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 11:18 pm (UTC)
**** quote ****

The BNP point seems to be that they want to restrict immigration from Groups who cannot or will not integrate into British Society and they do not seem to class Eastern European Groups as part of that problem.

*** end quote ***

What an utter load of bull, The BNP are extremely clever at wording their so called policies and the content of their website so they look normal and look to have common sense.

They are very clever at doing this and people who don't really know the BNP are sucked in thinking - oh the BNP are ok.

But behind the scenes every one knows the BNP want repatriate british citizens of colour and want to ban mixed race marriages why is that ok ?

That is racist and who the hell do they think they are tell people to do that, they have no right all.

That to me is also very similar to the Nazis restricting what the jews could do and then they threw German Jews out of germany before they thought of concentration camps and gas chambers.

**** quote ****

The BNP point seems to be that they want to restrict immigration from Groups who cannot or will not integrate into British Society.

*** end quote ***

Really ...... so what about the countless British coloured people who have intergrated in to British society, who are living and working peacefully and are very successful,what about them.

Mark my words if the BNP got in power british citizens of colour WOULD be treated like the Nazis treated the jews, before they where repatraited.

**** quote ****

The BNP point seems to be that they want to restrict immigration from Groups who cannot or will not integrate into British Society.

*** end quote ***

UKIP have the same policys but UKIP are not racists like the BNP.

You get bad apples in every barrel, looking at it from a different angle you can equally say BNP supporters cannot or will not integrate into British Society as British society IS multi cultural and has been for a very long time.


*** quote ****

they do not seem to class Eastern European Groups as part of that problem.

*** end quote ***

Reading between the lines thats because Eastern Europeans are white and nothing else. They like other "immigrants" have their own cultchure which they have to integrate in to the british way of life.

Some do, some don't but the BNP don't care as Eastern Europeans are white.
Re: BNP got less votes
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 11:19 pm (UTC)
*** quote ****

I suppose that that is the reason that there are no great problems when British Whites emigrate to places like Australia because they find it easier to integrate.

*** end quote ***

Your good, your very good but what you're wrong.

Australia's natives are aborigonies and not white, Australia has people of all colours and races living there.

Just because your white doesn't mean you will fit in and integrate, it boils down to people them selfs and their attitude and not what colour, race or religion they are.

It also comes down to what communinity you live in, if you're white and you live in a racist area where they hate whites you wont fit in, if your coloured but you live in a white area who are not racists you will fit in.

People of any race and religion can easily fit in if they want to.

*** quote ****

So, according to you, it is not rascist for Asian Lawyers to band togethe but it is for White Britons.

*** end quote ***

Clever very clever and sly, you have really thought this one out haven't you.

People who don't know the truth would believe it, But try harder as I know your talking utter but clever rubbish.

You're calling Asian Lawyers and National Black Police Association racist now.

Why don't you call gay organisations anti hetrosexual ?

Why don't you call the Scouts anti female as girls can't join them ?

Why don't you call the wemans institue anti male as men can't join them ?

Thats how stupid your point is.



*** quote ****

You can only join the BPA if you are a member of a Black Police group. IF that is not rascist then why is the BNP.

*** end quote ***

Like the BNP you're again picking on the National Black Police Association and saying oh they are racists, what a load of bull.

According to their website they say the following
:-

**************

The NBPA is open to all in policing on application, there is no bar to membership based on colour.

**************

So does that make them racist............. er no.


*** quote ****

So, according to you, it is not rascist for Asian Lawyers to band togethe but it is for White Britons.

*** end quote ***

Labour, Torys and liberals are made up mainly of white people so there are endless organisations which have white britons representing them.

Coloured people are very small minority of the UK.

The BNP have a policy to only let white people join, that does make them racist. Its against the anti racism laws. The equal opportunity commission are taking the BNP to court over that.

Griffin is an extremely clever racist and he will probably slime his way out of it. But no coloured person in their right mind would want to join the BNP as one court order won't change the BNP from still being racists.

Last month the press showed video of BNP members at the yearly BNP party encouraging a child to burn an golly which represents an effigy of black person and the implying that being a racist is ok, when its not.

Things like that prove behind closed doors the BNP will always be racists.

*** quote ****

If you think that the BPA is not a Political Outfit, then why is it not The British Police Organisation.

*** end quote ***

The NBPA are a registered charity and have no political ambitions at all and no ambition to rule country, so your point is meaningless.

If the BNP where the same then it would not matter, but the fact they want to try and take over the country and repatriate british citizens of colour is utterly wrong.
Re: BNP got less votes
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 11:20 pm (UTC)

*** quote ****

If you think that the BPA is not a Political Outfit, then why is it not The British Police Organisation.

*** end quote ***

After Steven Lawrences botched investigation it was legally proved some parts of the police are racists, coloured police officers where not treated the same as white officers, coloured people where treated worse than white people.

So I feel thats why the NBPA was formed but like I said before unlike the BNP the NBPA allow any one to join, go to their website or find coloured police officer and ask.

*** quote ****

I find trying to talk to anti fascists such as yourself just as difficult as you claim to do with BNP supporters, which I am not. I do it because Britain is on a heading to disaster unless the concerns of some sections of the populace are addressed.

*** end quote ***

I am anti fascist and anti racist I feel its utterly wrong to be a racist and fascist as no one should be hated or treated badly due their colour, race or religion.

You have to look at people for what they are and not their colour.

*** quote ****

Britain is on a heading to disaster unless the concerns of some sections of the populace are addressed.

*** end quote ***

I agree and instead of fighting each other people like us need to get together, find a compromise and fix the problem.

*** quote ****

The Polity is making exactly the same mistake that von Hindenburg et al made in 30s Germany. Problems do NOT disappear because you ignore them!

*** end quote ***

I fully agree we have to take the BNP and other racists head on and stop them.

writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 01:21 pm (UTC)

If the BNP really represented british white working class why didn’t they and the EDL and other racist like them have marches after 9/11 and 7/7, what where they doing then to “defend” the home land and “white” british working class people.

What where they doing then ?

The BNP have 2 MEPs with all their big words and fancy ideas to make Europe better if they where elected, what real difference for the better have they made to lives of people, they have made no difference at all.

Have they stopped the recession and mass unemployment in UK and Europe …… no.

What difference for the better has the BNP councilor for Barking and Dagenham made to lives of people in London.

He was in office when the recession started, did he stop the recession and mass unemployment in UK, did he stop Lehmans and other banks for crashing ?

No ………..

A few years before 7/7 the Oldham riots happened and I remember hearing how BNP and NF supporters went to an Asian part of Oldham and stirred things up there which caused those riots.

The BNP do NOT represent “white” working class as I have a huge lot of friends who are “white” working class and none of them would ever sink down to the racist level and tactics of the BNP and EDL.

99% of white working class I know of are not racists.

***Quote from colinru ****

As for putting Griffin on the BBC I think that, as a Public Service Broadcaster, the BBC have a duty to show all points of view no matter how reprehensible some think it to be. Denying the BNP the oxygen of publicity has not worked very well, has it. Time to look at their Policies and see if they can be refuted.

***End Quote ***


Ok what about the extremist British muslims, why don’t the BBC also have them on Question Time after all as a Public Service Broadcaster the BBC have a duty to show all points of view no matter how reprehensible some think it to be.

When the IRA where bombing the hell out of britain why didn’t the government and the BBC allow their political arm Sein Fenn to come BBC Question time ?

After all the as a Public Service Broadcaster the BBC have a duty to show all points of view no matter how reprehensible some think it to be.

I remember every time BBC wanted to show stuff from Sein Fenn actors had to come in to voice their words other times they where banned from BBC news.


***Quote from colinru.****

If the Polity want to stop the BNP then they have to put forward solid proposals, not soundbites, that address stopping mass immigration, ensuring that those most affected receive the funds to ameliorate the problems caused by it, forbidding the Public Services from practising inverse discrimination in favour of minority Groups, including those such as soi disant Travellers.

***End Quote ***

I fully agree with you every on regardless of race needs to be treated equally and fairly, but the BNP would never treat people of colour fairly as they hate any one who isn’t white.

You need to tell your MPs and go to The houses of parliament and say these things.

***Quote from colinru. ****

Lacking this, I suspect that the BNP et al will continue to grow because ther is no realistic alternative for the poor indigineous population who are predominantly white.

***End Quote ***

So you’re telling me that a bunch of neo nazi racists with NO experience of running a village or city, who hate any one who isn’t white can be trusted have to run our country which is part of the common wealth and which has access to nuclear weapons.

I don’t think so with their racist attitude the BNP can NOT be trusted at all.

UKIP are not racists and they are a realistic alternative for the indigenous population.

Now I have wasted enough of my time on this.
writemaster10
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 02:06 pm (UTC)
Another load of non sequiters.

Of course 2 MEPs cannot affect Policy on most things. How would they be able to and how can a Local Councillor affect National Politics. The point is that, if they make the right noises to their constituents, then their vote may well increase at the next Election.

I suppose that by education and income I am no longer working class but I still have many friends and acquaintances who are. What surprised me a few years back was the number of them that are now openly declaring that they have or will vote BNP and, in most cases these are not rascists, other than in the self referential way you define the term, but are just fed up of their perfectly legitimate concerns re mass immigration and inverse discrimination being howled down by people like you accusing them of racialism. In some cases it is not even immigrants that they are bothered about but other Groups like Travellers and Homosexuals being given priority, though that seems to be more the middle class element that get steamed up.

You suggest that I would disapprove of Extremist Muslims or Sinn Fein being on the BBC. Wrong again! Any Party that receives more than a miniscule vote SHOULD be allowed to give their view. Unlike you, I believe that everyone should be allowed to state their case even if I find it wrong.

You say that people should lobby their MP et al to change policy. They have tried that and are immediately accused of being rascists so they have stopped listening to LIBLABCON. Some of those I mentioned ealier have had EXACTLY that experience and given me a detailed account of it. THAT is why they are voting for an untried Party. Why would anyone take a punt on the unknown if they felt that they had even the slightest chance of having their concerns asddressed by the Polity.
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 02:29 pm (UTC)
I have tried to find a UKIP Policy re Immigration Control and I can only find what are, IMHO, platitudes and generalisations. I see no solid Policies. If you believe that such do exist, I would be grateful for a link.

As for your final sentence, how very kind and smug of you to waste your precious time on telling the rest of us how to think and vote.

People such as yourself have been abusing me on these posts for years when I say that there is a problem and the Polity needs to do something about it. Abusing and accusing me and others of being a BNP Supporter or racism to shut down debate plus putting up easily refuted straw men and non sequiters has been such a great success in the last decade or so, has it not. The BNP have gone from being a fringe Group to, possibly, being in reach of controlling a Council. What are you and LIBLABCON going to do if that happens. No doubt you agree with the latest Labour announcement that they will address the MISPERCEPTION amongst the working class that they suffer from mass immigration and inverse discrimination. In other words, all form and no substance. If the Polity do not fix this problem then the white working class will, one way or another, find a way to do it. You may well think the BNP abhorrent but the possible alternatives to peaceful, political change do not bear thinking about.
writemaster10 wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 09:13 pm (UTC)
I never implied UKIP wanted to repatriate british citizens of colour, i meant they also have strong anti immigration policies.

Lets not get in personal insults about each other I'm not smug, i spent a long time replying to your last post.

I too am sick of people telling me and others that BNP are cuddly and not racists when we all know they are racists
.
I will not be told by anyone how to think or vote.

I have never abused you at all, i was replying to your last post about my comments.

I agree immigration is problem and that it needs to be stopped.

I agree every one needs to be treated eqaully but voting for racists will not fix the problem.

I have never voted for labour, what i think of them is only a few steps above what i think of the BNP.

**** quote colinru *****

The BNP have gone from being a fringe Group to, possibly, being in reach of controlling a Council.

**** end quote ****

Yeah right and I have just seen a pig fly round Nick Griffins head.

So if they are that good and that popular, if they are that close to winning a full council why didn't the little racists actually win a full council with all their glossy pre election adverts.

The answer is the public know what the BNP are and 99% do not want to be assocaited with racists like them.

The BNP are the 2009 version of the NF, Believe me they are much more stream lined and extremely slicker version of the NF. They are very good at that but the BNPs roots are based on the NF as griffin and many other senior BNP management where part of the NF before breaking away and forming the BNP.

*** quote ***

What are you and LIBLABCON going to do if that happens.

*** end quote ***

mmmmmmmmmmm thats a clever question, i have to compliment you on that.

But me and others will do every thing we legally can to show voters what the BNP are really like.

Just like the BNP monitor us and try to show the voters they are the racist version of labour.



*** quote ***

No doubt you agree with the latest Labour announcement that they will address the MISPERCEPTION amongst the working class that they suffer from mass immigration and inverse discrimination. In other words, all form and no substance.

*** end quote ***

No i don't and any one with 2 brain cells (except for Labour) can see the above problem exists and needs to be fixed.

Bottom line is every one needs to be treated fairly regardless of colour, some thing which isn't happening now.

*** quote ***

Abusing and accusing me and others of being a BNP Supporter or racism to shut down debate


*** end quote ***

To me and others the BNP represent modern day racists.

I never abused you and others i never call people racists just to shut them up, i do it based on what i see and conclude.

*** quote ***

You may well think the BNP abhorrent but the possible alternatives to peaceful, political change do not bear thinking about.

**** end quote ****

Why not ?

Whats wrong with that ?

So you're telling me that every white working class person is a closet racists who hates any coloured person and will attack every coloured person they see before they vote for the BNP, what an utter load of bull.

So that means the same white working class will also hate england winning the world cup or their football team winning the match because there are coloured footballers in these teams which the white working class hate purely due to their colour.

Its not quite right as white working class people are normal who are fare and decent people.

Thats also like saying every muslim is a closet extremist when thats not the case at all.

The BNP are a load of racist bigots who if they won a council will treat no white british citizens as sub humans.

This is against the anti racism laws see equal opportunity commissions website for more info.
colinru wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 11:36 pm (UTC)
You are still attributing opinions and ideas to me without basis but this whole debate is becoming sterile.

I hope that you are right that the BNP are not going to win big but I doubt it because the Polity is not addressing legitimate concerns of the working class. I understood that they had a significant number of seats on some Councils but I have not looked up the actuaul figures. Alan Bullock in his book Hitler, A Study in Tyranny made the point that many people underestimated the groundswell for the Nazis until, it was too late and I think that many people are doing the same with the BNP. The working class are not rascist in most cases but I have spoken to some who are so sick of seeing immigrants getting preferential treatment that they are now voting BNP in desperation. We will see what the Election next year brings.
the debate on the BNP
johnb66 wrote:
Monday, 14 September 2009 at 05:26 am (UTC)
I grow weary of reading the comments by the weak minded who repeat the establishments lies that the BNP are like the Nazis. The dullards who write this, parrot the lies of the establishment politicians because they do not have a clue about the real political hierarchy in this world, or its true leaders, or its goals. There is a basic level of understanding any individual must achieve, before it is worthwhile engaging them in political conversation, and most people in the world have not achieved this level so talking real politics with them is about as useful as discussing the subject with a ten year old child.
Politics is about power, and power and vast amounts of money are synonymous.
The heads of government and the political leaders know this, they understand who really controls the world, and they have agreed to serve them or they would not hold the positions that they do. That is why the "socialist" Blair and Brown and the rest of the world leaders go hat in hand to the Builderbergers every year. That is why all the Presidents and Prime Ministers, Bush senior, Clinton, Bush Jr, and Obama, Thatcher, Major, Blair, and Brown, all have the trilateral commission running their treasury departments and that is why rhetoric about whether the Tories are better than Labour or the Lib Dems , or in the USA whether the Republicans are better than the Democrats, is a discussion for fools.
Any real populist political party must oppose the nefarious designs of the international bankers and in turn that party is going to be vilified by the establishment parties and the media, which is controlled by them. That is reality, and those who do not understand this are brainwashed .
The leadership of the BNP are well aware that the creation of the superstate of the EU and the corresponding loss of UK sovereignty is part of a design By the western worlds moneyed elite to solidify control of the power structure of the world, by the creation of an impenetrable bureaucracy, impervious to populist concerns, and they are not doing this for the benefit of ordinary people.
Any basic philosophy of true democratic government emphasizes distributed devolved power operating under local control, with checks and balances against abuse. This is the opposite of what has happened in recent years, in both the USA and the UK, and is the antithesis of the EU and the proposed NAU. There is really nothing to debate about, the BNP is currently the only hope for those Britons who wish to save their Nation from future Chaos, to repeat a prior election cry " It's all about the economy, stupid!! .
Re: the debate on the BNP
colinru wrote:
Monday, 14 September 2009 at 12:35 pm (UTC)
Well I am not sure that I agree with you that there is a successful conspiracy to control some aspects of the World, if only because I do not think that the Bankers etc. are really clever enough to manage it over decades without cockups causing them to give themselves away.

Having said that, I must agree with you and admit to a level of suspicion about the Bildeberg Conferences which I have always felt have a distinctly anti democratic odour about them. Also I agree that the EU is shaping up to become an overwheeening supra national Organisation.

Whilst I predominantly agree with the BNP re Immigration Control and countering the inverse discrimation which people I know have suffered in Britain, I am very dubious about some of their Economic Policies and outright disagree with ones like, effectively, renationalising chunks of the Economy. I am old enough to remember what a disaster area in terms of Customer Service the GPO, Gas Board, Electricity Board etc. were. That said, I rather hanker for the days when the CEGB ran the Electric Grid as I suspect that the coming Power Cuts, which ARE coming whatever Milliband Secundus may say, would not have happened on their watch. I am a great believer in free markets but I do not see how competing Companies can efficently plan for long term infrastucture like The Grid in a free market with an ineffective Regulator.

Thank you for your interesting reply.
Re: the debate on the BNP
johnb66 wrote:
Monday, 14 September 2009 at 03:46 pm (UTC)
I certainly agree with you that the Banksters have had the share of , as you call them "cockups" but that does not lesson their degree of control of the political process. I recommend the book "Tragedy and Hope" By Carrol Quigby as a starting point for your further edification. It is very thick and rather heavy going, but it is extremely well documented and an insiders view of the system.
Historically speaking, The Merchant Bankers wrested control from the "Traditional" Norman descended landowning aristocracy in a long struggle that began in Tudor times and effectively was completed when William of Orange was brought in to supplant the Stuarts. A century and a half later. even before the beginning of the Victorian era The banking families realized that the USA would eventually eclipse Great Britain in political power and moved to co-opt the power structure by intermarrying with American powerful families and producing some of the central dynasties that control American politics even unto this day. You can see this clearly if you look at the history of the "Skull and Bones" society at Yale university.
The real Power of these people is that they control so much of the western worlds economic engine that any political organization has to deal with their minions, even such an anti capitalist and xenophobic organization as the Chinese Communist Party was forced to largely abandon it central principals in return for access to the worlds economic system. Of course the lions share of the wealth generated by a hundred million Chinese working for a pittance in the so called "free trade" system has gone into the pockets of these super rich families and is now safely stashed in financial trusts in tax havens all over the globe. These are also the same places that hold on to the end of the string of financial documents that represent the debts "owed" by ordinary citizens of the western world, as these "sheeple" mortgaged their own and their children s future to pay the difference between what their salaries would provide and the price of the goods and services the Banksters offered them.
I am sure you can understand that DEBT IS SLAVERY and those who own the debt, rule the slaves.
There is one weakness in this system and it is that a national government has the power to declare some financial instruments illegitimate and to regulate interest due on ALL of these. Even more since the first or consumer end of these chain of banks were the ones caught in the squeeze between what their owners demanded in interest and what their financially destitute borrowers could actually pay, the governments intervention with nationally owned tax payer funded IOU's has given them a seat at the table, so to speak, in what was initially (on paper) a private struggle between the people and the Banksters.
Griffin and company propose to utilize this nationalist power to the maximum and the large level of support for the BNP is what has got the banksters knickers all in a twist. I suggest you go to the web site, listen to some of the financial videos and read a little bit on the financial treatise "the third way".
I am sure when intelligent people reflect on all of what has REALLY happened in our nations during the last centuries, we can see that organizing, EDUCATING, and electing, activist controlled, broad based populist political parties to run our governments is essential in neutralizing this dangerous concentration of power in the hands of a selfish and intensely greedy band of thieves.
allenn007 wrote:
Monday, 14 September 2009 at 07:53 am (UTC)
Writemaster10, you are right.

The success (Two seats) of the BNP in the Euro Elections was because they received a huge amount of news coverage and publicity prior to those elections courtesy of the media, including the BBC. Hardly a day went past without them getting a mention on the Today Programme and other news programmes, almost as if they were the ONLY alternative to the three main parties, which they aren't of course.
The media has been very good to the BNP in providing them with huge publicity in comparison with other small parties such as The Green Party or Socialist Labour for example which were putting forward 'Old' Labour policies and which would probably have appealed to people disillusioned with New Labour. Thus there were many other parties that didn't get a mention and hence got very few votes, people didn't know they existed. Therefore an appearance on QT will only give the BNP more undeserved publicity and advertising.
Time for honest reporting.
bertie_bert wrote:
Sunday, 13 September 2009 at 08:13 am (UTC)
The Times newspaper, which used to be regarded as Britain’s paper of record, has slipped to the level of the News of the World or The Sun in terms of inaccuracy, deliberate lies and staggeringly poor research, said Nick Griffin MEP.

Speaking to BNP News after The Times today published a ‘profile’ of himself, Mr Griffin said the article was a “devil’s brew of at least nineteen deliberate lies and several other staggeringly poor research errors.”

The article has already been reported to the Press Complaints Commission and the party is considering further steps against that newspaper
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/06/the-times-sinks-to-gutter-level-with-%e2%80%9cdevil%e2%80%99s-brew%e2%80%9d-of-deliberate-lies-and-incompetent-research/

The recent series of articles in the so-called ‘free press’ which contain a barrage of easily-disproved lies against the British National Party is something which is almost unparalleled in British political history.

Although the stories and lies are getting far too fantastic for any sane person to believe, the attempt to influence voters with a barrage of lies is of concern to anyone who holds the democratic process dear.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/05/the-%e2%80%9cfree-press%e2%80%9d-is-not-free-but-a-biased-propaganda-channel/

The British National Party today took its first mass media scalp when the treacherous lying The Sun newspaper was this afternoon forced to retract its libellous story about the BNP and the Gurkhas.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/05/victory-for-truth-as-%e2%80%98the-sun%e2%80%99-pulls-its-lying-article-on-the-bnp-and-gurkhas/

Joanna Lumley and the Gurkha Justice Campaign have issued the following statement regarding the unsavoury lies propagated by The Sun newspaper over a forged leaflet which made headline news yesterday.

The British National Party wishes to place it on record that the issue of the Gurkhas should not be politicised any further, and condemns The Sun unreservedly for resorting to this underhand smear tactic.
http://bnp.org.uk/2009/05/joanna-lumley-and-the-gurkha-justice-campaign-issue-official-reaction-to-lying-sun-smear/

So exactly where are all thse EXTREMIST BNP people?
The media MPs Clergy the BBC question time, has spent weeks publishing complete and utter drivel about the BNP using Polish spitfires (when it was in fact a tribute to the Polish pilots), using American models on their leaflets (when in reality they are stock photographs that advertisers use all the time, and it being illegal to use real nurses etc), Saying the BNP want to deport all non whites(which is NOT true), The Queens tea party, anti-Ghurka leaflets that were NOT BNP leaflets and on it goes , So lets sum up, IF the BNP were as bad as the media make out, why the need to make up lies?
Stands to reason if the media, UAF, Searchlight, has facts that were actually true THEY WOULD HAVE NO NEED TO SMEAR AND LIE !
WOULD THEY ?
And the BNP policies on Voluntary resettlement is not much different to the Labour and Conservatives policy, the main difference being, the BNPs is more generous and it provides the means for employment back in their home countries.
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