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Ian Burrell edits the Media Weekly pages of The Independent.

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Jan Moir of the Daily Mail speaks out after Gately uproar

Posted by Ian Burrell
  • Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:51 pm

The Daily Mail's high-profile columnist Jan Moir this afternoon took the highly unusual step of issuing a statement in an attempt to defuse the fury of respondents to the paper's website following a column published this morning on the death of the pop star Stephen Gately.

Moir's article was widely seen as an outspoken attack on gay lifestyles and civil partnerships. Hundreds of protesters flooded the Mail's website and more than 1,000 complaints were lodged at the Press Complaints Commission.

In a statement hurriedly prepared this afternoon, Moir claimed it had never been her intention to cause offence and claimed that the protest was a "heavily orchestrated Internet campaign" and that it was "mischievous in the extreme to suggest that my article has homophobic and bigoted undertones".

Her words are hardly likely to satisfy her critics and in particular gay rights organisations after she concluded the original article with the reflection that "under the carapace of glittering hedonistic celebrity, the ooze of a very different and more dangerous lifestyle has seeped out for all to see."


In her statement, released by the Mail's PR company, Brown Lloyd James, Moir stated:

"Some people, particularly in the gay community, have been upset by my article about the sad death of Boyzone member Stephen Gately. This was never my intention. Stephen, as I pointed out in the article was a charming and sweet man who entertained millions. However, the point of my column -which, I wonder how many of the people complaining have fully read - was to suggest that, in my honest opinion, his death raises many unanswered questions. That was all.

"Yes, anyone can die at anytime of anything. However, it seems unlikely to me that what took place in the hours immediately preceding Gately’s death - out all evening at a nightclub, taking illegal substances, bringing a stranger back to the flat, getting intimate with that stranger - did not have a bearing on his death. At the very least, it could have exacerbated an underlying medical condition.

"The entire matter of his sudden death seemed to have been handled with undue haste when lessons could have been learned.

"On this subject, one very important point. When I wrote that ‘he would want to set an example to any impressionable young men who may want to emulate what they might see as his glamorous routine’, I was referring to the drugs and the casual invitation extended to a stranger. Not to the fact of his homosexuality. In writing that ‘it strikes another blow to the happy-ever-after myth of civil partnerships’ I was suggesting that civil partnerships - the introduction of which I am on the record in supporting - have proved just to be as problematic as marriages.

"In what is clearly a heavily orchestrated internet campaign I think it is mischievous in the extreme to suggest that my article has homophobic and bigoted undertones."

Comments

Now there's a non-apology if ever I saw one...
[info]cogitodexter wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:31 pm (UTC)
She suggests that events of that night may have contributed to Mr Gately's death. Perhaps she should have taken a moment to think that being stuck in a traffic jam could equally have contributed to death via heart problem and that, instead, his personal life was quite probably utterly irrelevant to his medical condition.

As for 'orchestrated campaigns' - if the Internet is 'orchestrated' then she belongs with moon-landing conspiracy theorists. This is spontaneous word-of-mouth fury at someone who, whether she admits it or not, is showing every sign of bigoted homophobia and certainly revels in prurience and innuendo.

That wasn't an apology, that was just digging herself deeper into a hole of her own making. Sorry Ms Moir, you're going to have to do better than that.
Jan Moir
[info]martynnorris wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:32 pm (UTC)
There are jst some many things to say about this hateful and filled article but I will limit myself to, this woman is a idiot. Oh and the "heavily orchestrated Internet campaign" is trying to beat the 40,000 complaints to Ofcom from Mail readers about Ross/Brand (which most of them still haven't heard)with complaints about her to the PCC, whose website is down under the amount of traffic. Oh and we have read your article the the end you nasty little woman.
Re: Jan Moir
[info]maradona_2009 wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 09:48 pm (UTC)
jan moir has done nothing wrong when you contrast the death of michael jackson the same rubbish was printed about him and discussed on media outlets in this country and america by journalists accross the board even mentioning he was a child abuser when he was found of doing nothing of the sort and questioning his sexuality parenting skills were the kids his own to the drugs he was useing and all the other nonsense you can dream of it was done a million times more than waht one article by jan moir has done but nobody says a word about that
Re: Jan Moir
[info]vgnwtch wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 03:23 pm (UTC)
Well, that makes it alright then.
A complete non-apology....
[info]dungeekin wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:44 pm (UTC)
..which simply reiterates the initial slurs Ms Moir made.

Sadly, it seems the lady has attitudes and views more suited to 1949 than 2009.

Dungeekin
[info]getmilesaway wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:46 pm (UTC)
Unfortunately the PCC cannot do anything, as they can only act on complaints made by people directly affected, in this case friends and family of Mr Gately.

This whole furore just goes to show that proper journalism is dead and buried, in this world of celebrity and instant media. Papers need to resort to more extreme measures to sell their numbers, and drive online advertising revenue. It is interesting to note that after the outcries, advertising was removed from the page of the article in question, the title was changed and the article itself was edited to remove some more libellous aspects of the piece.

Jan Moir is nothing more than a bitter old gossip-monger who is craving attention. I hope to heck that it isn't the same Jan Moir who won awards with the Telegraph for her food pieces.
@getmilesaway
[info]iburrell wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:54 pm (UTC)
I gather that the PCC is liaising with family representatives. If the family wishes to pursue a complaint over the piece then I believe this would override those from third parties who have complained on the basis that they believe it causes distress to Stephen Gately's relatives.

ps I hope your second paragraph doesn't refer to The Independent.
Re: @getmilesaway
[info]getmilesaway wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 05:06 pm (UTC)
Yes, I read that the PCC was making itself fully available for the family and close friends of Mr Gately, and hope that they will be able to find a way out of this that is the least distressing for all parties. I do still believe that Ms Moir needs to issue a full, frank and honest apology for the pain she caused, not only to Mr Gately's family, but to all people everywhere, as this has not hurt just the gay community.

It absolutely does not refer to The Independent, I am a fan and enjoy reading the unbiased and thoughtful articles that are written in the paper, although I have to say, and I hope you don't hold this against me, that I do prefer The Times! It refers more to the red-tops, and the black-tops that are trying to join those ranks of sensationalism in their journalistic policies. There is a very interesting sub-story to all of this about the nature of today's media and how news is often reported without full editorial checks, due to the nature of today's instant media, 24-hour news, world. Made perfectly evident in the 2-hour chasing of a balloon live on US networks!
[info]alicemgib wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC)
It is a massive stretch to call Ms Moir's statement an apology. I am disgusted and appalled by her attitude and ignorance and truly hope that the Daily Fail will learn a lesson from this (unlikely I know!) And if numerous facebook groups and 1400 plus users trending her name on Twitter is an orchestrated campaign, perhaps Ms Moir's poisonous bile has started to affect her brain.
Was an apology needed?
[info]colesstuff wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:51 pm (UTC)
Personally after reading this article, it brought up similar conclusions that I arrived at when I initially heard the news, as more information filtered through, the picture was not looking as good as it could. With a huge fan base at this tragic time, I can understand why so many people have issues with this article, however, one needs to re read, and form their own conclusions once again. Personally I don't feel an apology was necessary and support Jan Moir for this piece of open minded journalism.
Re: Was an apology needed?
[info]cogitodexter wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 04:59 pm (UTC)
OPEN MINDED?

Open only insomuch as a black hole is open, sucking all light and hope out of anything nearby.
Re: Was an apology needed?
[info]getmilesaway wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 05:00 pm (UTC)
Ok, so you are happy that Jan Moir is correct to say that Mr Gately's death was not of natural causes, despite the coroner's official report stating so? And that you basically agree with Ms Moir's view that he was gay therefore he was a hedonistic party animal with nothing but sex and drugs on their mind? Ms Moir did nothing to back up any of her claims at all, and the vast majority of comments on this case have been scathingly critical of both herself and the Daily Mail editor for allowing this, frankly libellous, article to be published. It was heavily biased against homosexuals and does absolutely everything to further stereotypical beliefs about how gay people behave. Would this article have been written had Mr Gately been a heterosexual happily married male? Ms Moir makes it quite clear that she would not have written it had that been the case...

"Another real sadness about Gately's death is that it strikes another blow to the happy-ever-after myth of civil partnerships."

What about the happy-ever-after myth of marriage?

"Whatever the cause of death is, it is not, by any yardstick, a natural one. Let us be absolutely clear about this."

So the coroner was wrong to declare that a pulmonary odoema caused by a coronary arrest was the cause of death? That is, and is widely accepted as, a natural cause of death.

Your conclusions are the conclusions of a man who believes the stereotypes of homosexual behaviours, and have no place in this world whatsoever.
Re: Was an apology needed?
[info]colesstuff wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 05:18 pm (UTC)
Acknowledged.
Re: Was an apology needed?
[info]linni_loda wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 08:45 am (UTC)
she is a journalist, her private opinions of the events as they develop are inconsequential it is her job to report the truth not print fictitious stories about her idea's of what may have happened or too make unsupportable claims. The interpretation of facts often leads to fair misunderstanding but this article was (intentionally or not) less of a reporting piece and more simple a personal opinion completely disregarding facts all together
Moir's apology (also posted to the Press Gazette)
[info]ludovicah wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 05:51 pm (UTC)
Oh the arrogance! You sneer at a man's *lifestyle* and yet what are the facts? a young couple have a houseguest in a home that is 3 bedrooms +...The houseguest is a friend, staying the week as I understand it. One of the young men dies.. The coroner says "Natural Causes"
Yet from this Ms Moir concocts a festering, curtain twitching, head shaking monstrosity of innuendo and repugnance, publishes this for the world to see and then cries "Unfair" when everyone is genuinely horrified at her insensitivity of timing, her palpable prejudice and her obscene twisting of the facts to give the Mail's demographic readership the frisson of misanthropy they love to ingest with their toast and coffee of a morning. Shame on you Moir, and shame on you for your piteous mewing about "orchestrated campaigns" etc Its not how it is. You are simply outnumbered by people who have chosen NOT to be judgemental haters of people on grounds of sexuality. Apologise.. and then go find a job you are more suited to
Re: Moir's apology (also posted to the Press Gazette)
[info]crock789 wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:31 pm (UTC)
Well written !
Re: Moir's apology (also posted to the Press Gazette)
[info]ludovicah wrote:
Wednesday, 21 October 2009 at 11:10 pm (UTC)
Thank You
[info]ramtops wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 05:54 pm (UTC)
You odious woman. I read the whole article this morning, *before* the paper pulled the headline, and the ads.

You keep digging, my dear - hopefully nobody will ever commission you to write another piece.
oh FFS
[info]gerriparker wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:00 pm (UTC)
Stil peddling lies even with this so called apology. The other man wasn't a stranger, the coroner has said that drugs didn't cause the death and frankly if Jan thinks that 3 hours constitutes "all evening" then no wonder she has time to write this gumph.
[info]lovelybug wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:20 pm (UTC)
We did read it. That's our problem. She hasn't read the comments, and has utterly failed to understand the depth and detail of the complaints against her. That's hers.
[info]mordicai wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:25 pm (UTC)
Quite exactly an apology. Wait, what is the opposite of an apology?

How dare readers take her at what she says. Those are just words! Words she said.
Daily Mail columnist is also hateful moron...
[info]thelzdking wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:40 pm (UTC)
Is anyone suprised?
[info]trizia wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 06:49 pm (UTC)
"Yes, anyone can die at anytime of anything. However, it seems unlikely to me that what took place in the hours immediately preceding Gately’s death - out all evening at a nightclub, taking illegal substances, bringing a stranger back to the flat, getting intimate with that stranger - did not have a bearing on his death. At the very least, it could have exacerbated an underlying medical condition.

If he had an underlying medical condition ANYTHING could have exacerbated it, you foul gobshite of an excuse for a human!
hedonistic moir kills gately
[info]bemused2 wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 07:14 pm (UTC)
In another paragraph on the same page, Moir wrote: "I've just returned from a girls' weekend in Scotland. In years gone by, we would have been up to the Plimsoll Line in chilled white wine by 3pm and have terrorised every eligible bachelor within a ten-mile radius of our rented cottage..."

From this I conclude (using skills learned at the Jan Moir school of investigative journalism) that Moir terrorised Gately to his death during a hedonistic drink binge and was so shitfaced that she later forgot all about it. Mail columnists - depraved characters, all.
[info]littleorangecat wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 07:39 pm (UTC)
That is not an apology, it basically confirms that she is a bigot who cannot even see that what she wrote was homophobic. So what if they took someone else home with them, it doesn't mean they weren't happy.

I'm too angry to post a coherent comment.
Oh dear, so really not an apology at all!
[info]steph_lb wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 08:32 pm (UTC)
Not only has she tried and failed miserably at trying to hide the fact that she quite blatantly WAS trying to connect Stephen Gately tragic and untimely death to the fact that he was homosexual, but she has also managed to make herself seem even worse. Who knew it was possible?

She says how she in fact she liked Stephen Gately... funny I seem to remember a comment on him being the posh spice of Boyzone and not being able to sing? oh I am sorry for mistaking that for being something other than a complement!
She then continues to say how she only meant to raise questions on a suspicious death? Darling I am afraid; as many many people will tell you THERE WAS NOTHING SUSPICIOUS ABOUT IT.

Oh Jan talking about dealing with issues with un-due haste? Like slandering a poor man, innocent and not yet cold in his grave- in fact not even buried perhaps?

I would take the hint Moir- no one likes you, you in fact should probably quit your job now before your fired to the sound of cheers.

And as for trying to say that you are not a homophobe or a bigot... well my love I am afraid you have thoroughly managed to unconvince us all of that!
I think it best for everyone if you just piss off somewhere remote so you don't end up digging yourself further into what already seems to be a massive hole!
Why Bring Up The Sex
[info]loveablelefty wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 08:40 pm (UTC)
Whta really blows Moir's cover is the lascivious lingering over possibly illicit sex.

For what it's worth, I take a dim view of adultery - whether condoned or otherwise, but I can't think of a single way in which it might have contributed to the sudden death of a helathy young man. (Perhaps my mind just isn't as filthy as hers).

And of course she has to bring the sex into it, otherwise it would be harder to claim "it's a gay thing",

Intellectually (and morally) she's on a par with people who blame earthquakes and hurricains on the mores of those who get in their way.

Still, being a liberal, I hope she isn't swept away by a freak flood of sewage.
Accused of bigotry by Daily Mail readers!
[info]frwilliams wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 08:50 pm (UTC)
When you're accused of bigotry by a flood of Daily Mail readers you know you're in hot water!
[info]ciorstaidh wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 09:14 pm (UTC)
No, Ms. Moir, I came to the conclusion that you're a disgusting homophobic sh*t-stirring cow all on my own.

I'd be appalled that the Daily Mail prints such tripe as your column of 16.10.09, much less pays you for it, except ya know...it's the Daily Mail, so my expectations were already at a low.

Just keep digging, Ms. Moir, and maybe we can even get the torches out for bigot-baiting *vbg*
Mischevious ?
[info]paulomara wrote:
Friday, 16 October 2009 at 09:40 pm (UTC)
In a totally non offensive, non committal way I would just like to say Burn the Witch !
Heavily Orchestrated?
[info]stryngbass wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 12:51 am (UTC)
Ms Moir clearly knows nothing about the Internet, and its various social networks. They're free of hierarchy, and therefore it's pretty damn tough to orchestrate anything, especially in such a short time.

The more you say, Ms Moir, the more ill-informed and ignorant you look.
[info]linni_loda wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 08:39 am (UTC)
Nicely backtracked. i think we can all see this apology for the publicity and advertising saver that it is.

Sadly I did read your article in full and its the last Daily Mail article I will be reading. so as a 23 year old that used to buy the Daily Mail 4-5 times a week, congratulations on loosing your paper my 50 years of readership.
[info]linni_loda wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 08:48 am (UTC)
and also. there was no orchestrated attack. simply people who believe in giving the outraged online masses links to the tools through which to express that outrage.
[info]aeka wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 01:42 pm (UTC)
Either this woman is as bad a writer that she is implying to be, or she must really think we're stupid if she really thinks we're going to buy this rubbish apology (if it can even be called that).
[info]vgnwtch wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 03:31 pm (UTC)
The Daily Mail bases its entire being on fear mongering and cheap sensationalism dressed up as moralising, so I suppose that when you're used to peddling vague but nasty innuendo about queer and trans people in a paper that peddles vague but nasty innuendo about queer people and explicitly nasty ideas about trans people to an audience that generally laps this stuff up, you're bound to be thrown when a chunk of that audience revolts.

Having always got away with something doesn't mean you always will.
Jan Moir
[info]liketinkiwinki wrote:
Saturday, 17 October 2009 at 10:31 pm (UTC)
"Mischievous" is a bit of an understatement.

Relating the death of Gately and Mcgee is just ridiculous and intentionally inciting a negative view of the gay community by lumping two tragic events together.

This "journalist" should be dismissed for breaching articles 1 2 3 5 and 12 of the code.
[info]ciaran_chayne wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 04:54 am (UTC)
In this case, Jan Moir has compromised her reputation as a journalist. If your article has received contempt from the public because of the lack of factual collaboration, then you should realise that the problem is in your writing and not that there's some conspiracy theory behind the mass disapproval. If she claims she meant no offense, then she should realise that she has at least produced a very badly written article that clearly did not express what she wanted to.

If she truly wasn't being homophobic, then what was her article trying to address? That having an adventurous sexual lifestyle led to Gately's death (her so-called proof for said 'deviancy' is woefully insufficient)? That smoking cannabis led to his death (despite a medical autopsy proving that it was natural causes and could happen any time)? That civil unions are problematic and will lead to bad lifestyles and death by heart problem (nonsense, nonsense, nonsense!)?

It was a very badly written article and it read more like someone trying to write something exciting and unusual but did not having the ability (or facts) to support it.

Making a mistake is acceptable. Being incapable of truly apologising for that mistake and trying to blame someone else for their problems is not.
aaah - but she isn't a journalist is she?
[info]grocko wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 07:21 am (UTC)
I think that's the problem - most people here are mistaking her for a journalist. In fact she was a restaurant critic for the Telegraph first - before she landed this cushy new job as Miss gobshite-in-residence, I'm sorry, I meant to say columnist - where she is basically paid to sit on her arse all day long stuffing her face with pies - watching TV - and writing down just whatever nasty poisonous opinionated nonsense that flits across what passes for her brain - in an attempt to be provocative*. (I've noticed she doesn't even bother to try to be witty or humorous while she does it. Such a thing would call for talent.) Proper journalists have to do real work like research to make sure they get their facts straight and also usually try to adhere to a code of practise and a set of standards. She plainly - doesn't. All of which goes some way to explaining why, even now, she can't see that she's done anything wrong, and worse, is now trying to play the 'poor me - I'm all misunderstood and being victimized' card.

As things stand her opinions (as expressed in her column) have been proven worthless and I hope that The Daily Mail will see her as liability now that she's upset quite a few of their advertisers and will soon be dispensing of her services. (I somehow can't imagine the Mail caring one hoot that it will have offended Stephen Gately's family, friends, fans, and the gay community, or else the article would never had been published in the first place. But it will very much care about that advertising money.) I shan't hold my breath on that one though.


[*Oh, was I making gross assumptions there and using hateful stereotyping? Well, if it's good for enough for Jan Moir then it must be OK for us to play that game too. No? No, you're right it isn't.]
Has everyone gone crazy?
[info]hzle wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 11:40 am (UTC)
Give me one sentence from it that was actually homophobic and I'll stop talking about this from now on. The sentence given as an example above:

"under the carapace of glittering hedonistic celebrity, the ooze of a very different and more dangerous lifestyle has seeped out for all to see"

..is not homophobic. It's talking about celeb drink/drugs binge lifestyles. I'm disappointed in her for writing the article (are editors to blame, was there more sense in the original?) She's not normally stupid. But it is ill-informed and not deliberately hate-stirring.

Would there be the same reaction if she'd written in the Independent? How did the Mail become the new 3rd Reich? I never buy it and rarely read any of it, but the sanctimonious people who write in it have one thing in common with Indie readers/writers: they don't want to think about things before judging them.

Understanding bad - soapboxes good, apparently.
Re: Has everyone gone crazy?
[info]grocko wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 03:45 pm (UTC)
Give me one sentence that is actually homophobic?

What? aside from the whole tone of the article? And the sentence you quoted already?

OK:

"And I think if we are going to be honest, we would have to admit that the circumstances surrounding his death are more than a little sleazy."

(did you get that? Not just plain ordinary sleazy - but more than a little sleazy.)

and here's another:

"Another real sadness about Gately's death is that it strikes another blow to the happy-ever-after myth of civil partnerships. Gay activists are always calling for tolerance and understanding about same-sex relationships, arguing that they are just the same as heterosexual marriages. Not everyone, they say, is like George Michael."

Would there been the same reaction if she had written in the Independent?

Yes. And it would have been the same reaction if she'd written for any other paper.

When a relative/loved one of yours dies we'll try and get Jan Moir to write the obituary for you - you'll like that - and she'll be desperate for the work by then.
What ever happened to the right to an opinion. In support Of Jan Moir
[info]wildewood2 wrote:
Sunday, 18 October 2009 at 06:20 pm (UTC)
This is an example of the same kind of furore that arose after Jonathon Ross made those comments on the radio. People are just jumping on the bandwagon. How many of the so called outraged have any really idea what they're talking about. So Jan committed the cardinal sin of suggesting that a poor guy died because of the way he lived. We all know he didnt die from a heart condition. Her main error was timing. So its ok to call Michael jackson a paedophille then cannonise him but its wrong to suggest that a gay celeb died because of a loose lifestyle? Where was his husband when he was dying on the couch? Stop this PC rubbish. It is what it is. Tragic but preventable. No one is suggesting he or his family deserved this. But I wholly support what Jan is trying to say. Any ass behind a keyboard can be outraged. If you all are so outraged, get off the couch and go and stand up for your principles. At least this woman has the courage to do just that.
Nothing, it's still here. In support of thinking before writing.
[info]ciaran_chayne wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 02:47 am (UTC)
The right of opinion is happening right here, right now. Just as Jan Moir has the right to post her article, everyone else has the right to express their opinion on it, positive or negative. Just because the overwhelming response is negative doesn't mean they shouldn't be allowed to say it. I truly detest when people bring out the 'right of opinion' excuse because it always means that they want to have the right to say what they want, but everyone else should shut up about it.

Welcome to the 20th century. It's called feedback. We're all exercising our right of opinion here.

I only read two articles on Stephen Gately's death so maybe I'm missing something. One of those was how the coroner said he died of natural causes (heart defect). So why on earth are you saying that we all know he didn't? And why are you presuming that we all know this? After reading the coroner's report, I'm supposed to magically deduce something sordid happened and the coroner lied about it? Wow. Seriously? I'm to believe the tabloids over a coroner now?

I've lost count the number of times my friends bunked over with other friends after a night of clubbing without sex being involved. I KNOW! Shocking stuff!

That aside: WHAT IS THE RELEVANCE? So what if he was having some happy threesome or if he had allowed his husband to get it on with someone else? So what if he had a few drinks or was partying? What is your (and Jan Moir's) point? That the sex killed him? The partying? The marijuana? Because you know better than the coroner, right? How did it tie in to civil union and gay rights, that Jan Moir brought up? People who are single don't die like that? People who are married? People who are straight? What??

If it isn't a bad article, I don't know what is. I don't know why I'm supposed to applaud her for that just because she wrote something different (I can write something different too, if facts are something I can discard willy nilly).
Re: Nothing, it's still here. In support of thinking before writing.
[info]wildewood2 wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 05:06 am (UTC)
Ciaran
I appreciate your reply. Firstly because it was balanced logical and non vitrolic. I expected some pretty vigorous responses to my post. I don't deny anyone their opinion, be it negative or positive. I never said that everyone who didnt agree with Jan should shut up. Its just that the same people that get so raged up against this article seem to be so quiet on the thousands of other occasions when a person is torn down in the press and their lives destroyed. Michael Barrymore being just one example, countless others.

I suppose I just don't like to see someone villanised for standing by a viewpoint. OK so her's was a pretty public airing of her views but is that not her job? I don't believe that she was advocating hate.
As far as the coroners report goes, what I gleaned from it was that he was saying that whatever killed Stephen was a result of his own body and not a 3rd party.i.e he wasn't murdered. 'Natural causes' can include dying from choking on vomit. Its also a fact that excess alcohol and drugs can make the heart fail especially if theres an underlying condition. I don't think and never implied that sex had anything to do with his death. It wasn't sex that killed him. I also don't think Jan did either. I think she meant the general circumstances. Of course I don't know better than the Coroner, I would never try to say otherwise. I'm prepared to be wrong about that and if I am, it was an unfortunate time for him to die of an intrinsic heart condition.

Is it so foolish to suggest that he may not have died if someone had been beside him at the time, when he was in difficulty? And if they weren't, why was that?
Where were they? The prima facia evidence suggests that there was something untoward going on. Its not my place to judge what exactly that was. I suppose it comes down to ones definition of untoward. To me this is not a matter of being gay or straight, about civil unions or whatever, thats Jans argument not mine. I just wish the guy had gone to bed at 11pm, read a bit and gone to sleep with his husband. Then we wouldn;t be having this discussion. But that not life, right?
T
Re: Nothing, it's still here. In support of thinking before writing.
[info]ciaran_chayne wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 02:45 pm (UTC)
The world today moves fast and for people to be interested, it has to get their attention. Lots of people deserve better from the press (no more than tabloids in some cases) and if more people were outraged over bad journalism, that would be great. But some people or some stories will slip the public by. That's life. The main point is this: Do you let this one go unmentioned if you know about it, just because there are others who didn't get the same attention? My personal view is that just because some journalists get away with it, doesn't mean every single one after gets a free pass.

As you said, it's a very public airing. So a public response isn't unusual, regardless of if it's her job or not. Politicians, newsreaders, journalists, anyone in the spotlight doing their job still receives public feedback.

In the article I read that reported it (not a tabloid), they said he died of natural causes from pulmonary oedema, which is neither caused by alcohol or marijuana (what the coroner said, I'm not a doctor). Named witnesses said he wasn't throwing up, passing out drunk when he left the place.

To be honest: Yes, it is pretty foolish to suggest that. Now, you're playing the 'if' game, which doesn't work in reality. See, going along the 'if' lines, I think it would be more likely that if he was asleep next to his husband and died peacefully in his sleep (as the coroner said), then his husband mightn't even wake up. But who really knows what might have happened?

Are people supposed to glue themselves to their loved ones, with their fingers to their pulse point, no toilet breaks or sleep, in case their partners die of a genetic disease? To imply that his partner or his friend or his second partner or whoever that person was have to explain to the public why they weren't right next to him when he died, weren't right next to him every minute of that night, is pretty ridiculous.

Personally, I really don't see how the evidence so far would suggest anything untoward. But I know some people will see something there, but even so, I stand by my point: How is it relevant? The three of them were all in the same house, that third fella having gone home with them. Anything that happened in that house, happened with the consent of all three of them. Even if they all had sex or just two of whichever pairing did, it still doesn't relate to how he died. As you said, the sex didn't kill him. Yet it still became a big deal (without evidence) in Jan Moir's article.

You might not care about him being gay or straight, civil unions or whatever. But Jan Moir brought those up as main points in her article. So clearly she does. And I don't see how anyone can support that thinking.

And if she really doesn't mean it that way, then she has written that article badly. Which she should own up to instead of blaming everyone else for having a reaction.

I feel that Stephen Gately's personal life is his own. What he chose to do before his death, as long as all parties were consenting adults, was part of living. The sleaziness only came into it when a journalist decided she could make it so.
admission of journalistic incompetence
[info]bernieszu wrote:
Tuesday, 20 October 2009 at 12:47 pm (UTC)
Jan Moir's non-apology is at least a clear admission of her complete incompetence as a journalist. Couldn't communicate her intended message and failed to comprehend the coroner's report.
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